Thread: Transport of Aust aircrew to Canada for training

Hi Paul - there was a previous thread called "RAAF shipping details" where a similar question was asked. It is for movements after the one you are asking about, but most of the advice will hold: including the title of a book covering troopship movements from Australia.

cheers


Dave


PS - I assume you are asking about PATRICK LEO MCCARTIN 419238 of 75 (NZ) SQUADRON (UK) KIA 20NOV1944 (nice photo on his file). He is listed as dying in a flying battle but I can't find what aircraft type he was in or any other details. Can you please share what you have. (from the date and unit I guess he was in a Lancaster flying out of RAF Mepal)

F/O. P L. McCartin RAAF

20 November 1944

75 Squadron
Lancaster III ND911 AA-V
Op. Homberg

Took off 1247 hrs Mepal (No other details)

20 November 1944 Homberg raid

183 Lancasters of No 3 Group made a G-H attack on the oil plant at Homberg but the weather was stormy and many aircraft were not able to maintain formation with the G-H aircraft on the bombing run. The bombing, through cloud, was believed to have been scattered. 5 Lancasters lost.

Regards
Peter

Here's the previous McCartin thread:

http://ww2chat.com/forums/showthread...light=mccartin

That's a pretty fast crossing of the Atlantic, Paul. I wonder if he was on the Queen Mary or other converted liner?

Would have thought they'd disembark at Liverpool or somewhere like that as opposed to Brighton.

It wasn't Queen Elizabeth according to:
http://www.shaw.af.mil/shared/media/...090330-073.pdf

On 25 August 1943, HMS Queen Elizabeth dropped anchor and the men of the 20th
disembarked at the Firth of Clyde.

She departed the US on August 20 so that gives an idea how fast the crossings were. I'm assuming they mean RMS Queen Elizabeth as opposed to the battleship which, being an old girl, I doubt could have made the trip so quickly. Confirmed by this:

If the members of the
20th had expected a typical Queen Elizabeth pleasure cruise, they were sorely disappointed. The ship had been refitted to
accommodate over 19,000 men.

Queen Mary is a possibility:
http://www.queenmary.com/index.php?page=1943

August 27 - 31, 1943: Winston Churchill returns to Gourock, Scotland, with 15,116 troops.

Churchill had arrived at Halifax on the QM earlier in the month. Bit of a stretch without anything firmer but seems most likely. She may have sailed onwards to another UK port from Gourock ... or disembarked everyone the next day ... or arrived August 31 and was still unloading on Sept 1.

The fast HX (Halifax) convoys took too long. For example, HX254 left New York on August 27 and arrived Sept 12.

Apologies for all the links and obscure referencing. I am no convoy expert so have few resources to hand. I do like anything nautical though.

another way of checking shipping movements is to get access to the Admiralty's daily records, which listed where every Admiralty ship and therefore convoys were at the end of each day. However it is a difficult amount of logs to wade through at Kew records. It isn't helped by the fact that from March/April 1940 the Admiralty decreed that the monthly logs of all shops smaller than a battleship were to be destroyed through lack of storage space. I am unsure of what happened to the logs of merchant and transport vessels, but i suspect something similar happened. The links the others have given you are a great place to start chasing leads, other than that the only other place i think you may find some help is Red Duster, the site of the Merchant Navy veterans.

So, searching the Admiralty might end in pulling your hair out?

I checked convoyweb and Queen Mary is supported again:
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/at/index...voy=61!~atmain

Convoy AT.61

Depart Halifax on 27 August 1943.
Arrive Clyde on 31 August 1943.
Hague's records contain 1 merchants and 0 escorts

Vessel Pdt. Tons Built Cargo Notes
QUEEN MARY (Br) 81,235 1936 15000 TROOPS

Data supplied by Don Kindell, extracted from the late Arnold Hague's papers with the kind permission of Mrs. Gill Hague.

The search I did was for Halifax departures on +/- a couple of days. QM was the only one that came up. Gourock (from my previous post) is on the Clyde so that fits as well.

With reference to the Nieuw Holland, again according to convoyweb, she was in Algiers on March 4, 1943:
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/kmf/inde...y=10A!~kmfmain

Convoy KMF.10A

Depart Clyde on 25 February 1943.
Arrive Algiers on 4 March 1943.
Hague's records contain 6 merchants and 10 escorts (6 ships TDS)

Vessel Pdt. Tons Built Cargo Notes
BATORY (Pol) 14,287 1936 ALGIERS
BOISSEVAIN (Du) 14,134 1937 ALGIERS
CIRCASSIA (Br) 11,136 1937 ALGIERS
CLARE ESCORT 02/03 - 03/03
EGRET ESCORT 02/03 - 04/03
ERNE ESCORT 02/03 - 04/03
FARNDALE ESCORT 03/03 - 04/03
FISHGUARD ESCORT 02/03 - 04/03
FRANCONIA (Br) 20,175 1923 ORAN
HAYDON ESCORT 03/03 - 04/03
LETITIA (Br) 13,595 1925 ORAN
NIEUW HOLLAND (Du) 11,066 1927 ALGIERS
OAKLEY ESCORT 03/03 - 04/03
PUCKERIDGE ESCORT 03/03 - 04/03
TEST ESCORT 02/03 - 04/03
ZETLAND ESCORT 03/03 - 04/03

Data supplied by Don Kindell, extracted from the late Arnold Hague's papers with the kind permission of Mrs. Gill Hague.

I haven't been able to match anything to a Melbourne departure yet but will also try west coast Canada arrivals.

Thanks for your assistance with this enquiry.

My wife and I spoke very recently to Leo's sister - now 92 but travelling really well - and she was adamant that the ship that Leo left Melbourne on was the "New Holland" because she went down to see him off . But the records for the Nieuw Holland obviously show otherwise - so the Aust to Canada trip is a bit of a mystery.

I assume that the ships would have gone to Vancouver and the men then transferred by train to the SFTS - in Leo McCartin's case it was to Souris for a couple of weeks and then to Claresholm.

For the Halifax to UK leg the Queen Mary looks like the right fit.

Cheers

Paul

Is convoy web getting updated?

Is it possible the lady in question saw the Nieu Holland in harbour at the same time as she went to wave her brother goodbye and got the ship names mixed up?