Thread: CWGC quandary

There are 36 Australians similarly listed, though most are Royal Papuan Constabulary or New Guinea Police Force, except:

Name: AITAP
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Seaman
Regiment/Service: Australian Merchant Navy
Unit Text: M.V. Mamatu (Hong Kong.)
Date of Death: between 03/09/1939 and 31/12/1945
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 10.
Memorial: PORT MORESBY MEMORIAL

I hate to say this, but the thought occurs to me that they may consider that non-white personnel require less careful research and documentation than white personnel.

Originally Posted by Adrian Roberts

I hate to say this, but the thought occurs to me that they may consider that non-white personnel require less careful research and documentation than white personnel.

I read somewhere .. and now I can't remember where .. ( ? ) that there are a number of references in newspaper articles about a majority of Indian troops among the British dead. .... but there is no mention of them in the CWGC records ...... it's not known if this an error or if they perhaps cremated in accordance with Hindu religion and culture ? I wonder if at the time they were all counted as British then ( the powers that be ) changed their minds and by that time it was too late to know correct date of deaths !

Originally Posted by liverpool annie

I read somewhere .. and now I can't remember where .. ( ? ) that there are a number of references in newspaper articles about a majority of Indian troops among the British dead. .... but there is no mention of them in the CWGC records ...... it's not known if this an error or if they perhaps cremated in accordance with Hindu religion and culture ? I wonder if at the time they were all counted as British then ( the powers that be ) changed their minds and by that time it was too late to know correct date of deaths !

There is a Cremation Memorial at El Alamein for those who's beliefs required cremation.

In the case of the Ariosto;15/2/42 most casualties have D.O.D. between two variable dates. After a lot of research the reason is that no Embarkation list was made. The first date is variable which is the date they were reported missing. The second is always the 20/5/42,the date all those who went missing during the same period were registered as P.O.W. with the Red Cross in Italy.Over the next few months many sets of remains were washed up on the Coast of Tunisia.All of these are buried with the D.O.D. when they were discovered,mostly as unknown, with just a few being identified.
Kyt has the list of Members of the Indian Forces who died on the Tembien, but recently released records give the names of those who's remains were recovered from the sea and buried in Tripoli.
The Records show what great efforts went into tracing these casualties. What a pity the M.O.D. waited 65yrs to show us this.

There is another way you can get misled by C.W.G.C. Records;if a man is not seen for some time during battle,or for any other reason and his remains are not recovered,he is given D.O.D. as when last seen alive.
I looked into the case of a P.O.W. who was on the loose in Germany in 1945; he was presumed to be dead and no recognisable remains were recovered for burial. He was taken prisoner in N/Africa so even though he died in Germany he is remembered on the memorial at El Alamein.

I have not come across any evidence that members of the Indian Forces were treated any differently by C.W.G.C. as Cemetery and Memorial Registers show.
Native South Africans could be another story.

It is not always possible to give a definitive D.O.D. for a casualty for many reasons.

Originally Posted by Kyt

Looking at the entries for Indian deaths I've just noticed that there are 225, of all services, listed for 03/09/1939. A remarkably high number until one looks at the individual enteries, at which point finds:

Date of Death: between 03/09/1939 and 31/12/1947

Many casualties are for known merchant ships, where date of loss is known, some as late as 1943/44. So why such an open-ended date of death?

The third of September is the date Britain and France Declared War on Germany.
Were the casualties Merchant Seamen,or were they from all branches of Service.

From my own experience with Merchant Navy research I can agree with Brian and Adrian. There are indeed many reasons why a DoD cannot be given. Most of the Asiatic seamen lost on "CITY OF CAIRO" were given a DoD of 6th November 1942 despite the fact that only one Lascar seaman is known to have been lost from the ship on this date. The date given is the date the ship was torpedoed. Contrast that with a document I have showing confirmation of an Indian seaman's survival. This was someone who had the same name as another member of the crew and was recorded as being lost at sea. They went to great lengths to ensure they got that one right. I do have the dates of death of most of the European seamen and passengers of this ship apart from one or two and in those cases the CWGC have a DoD within range of one month.

Bear in mind that with regard to Indian seamen lost aboard merchant ships many were in lifeboats for many days, weeks or months after being torpedoed and in some of those cases the DoD would be given as the date the ship was lost not when the indivdual died. In some cases the senior survivor of a lifeboat kept a log (not official) which had the numbers of those in the lifeboat. If names were recorded it was usually the Europeans and not the Lascars although I have seen logs with all names recorded.

In another sad case two Indian seamen who were landed at St Helena, who had died aboard their rescue ship, were buried nameless ashore. Whether their names were not known or if any of the survivors were asked who they were is unknown.

Regards
Hugh

Thanks for your suggestions guys. I've listed a sample of the first 30 names of "Indians". As you can see, the include army, Indian Navy and Merchant Navy.

I am currently working on the "British" list, but so far I have only found those who are would be considered Burmese, Malayan etc, not British "white" casualties.


No Surname Rank Service Number Date Of Death Age Regiment/Service Nationality Grave/Memorial Ref. Cemetery/Memorial Name
1 ABDUL GHAFUR Sepoy 14846 03/09/1939 21 16th Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
2 ABDUL GHANI Pioneer 200753 03/09/1939 26 Indian Pioneer Corps Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
3 ABDUL GHANI Able Seaman 101694 03/09/1939 Unknown Royal Indian Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
4 ABDUL HUSAIN Sepoy 9447 03/09/1939 33 16th Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
5 ABDUL LATIF Pioneer 422268 03/09/1939 25 Indian Pioneer Corps Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
6 ABDUL MUNIF Fireman 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
7 ABDUL RAHMAN Fireman 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
8 ABDUL RAHMAN Havildar Clerk GC/308 03/09/1939 27 16th Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
9 ABDUL RAIS Trimmer 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
10 ABDUL RASHID Trimmer 03/09/1939 24 Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
11 ABDUL RASHID Sepoy 11402 03/09/1939 24 16th Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
12 ABDUL SHAHID Trimmer 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
13 ABDUR RASHID Fireman 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
14 ABHAN Sowar V/3559 03/09/1939 17 Indian Army Veterinary Corps Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
15 ADALAT KHAN Sepoy 9244 03/09/1939 31 16th Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
16 ADICHAN Labourer 1024 03/09/1939 Unknown Travancore State Civil Labour Unit Indian Column 31. KOHIMA CREMATION MEMORIAL
17 AHMAD BIN ABDUL RAHMAN Sapper ME/550 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Engineers Indian Column 40. SINGAPORE MEMORIAL
18 AHMAD KHAN Sepoy 16372 03/09/1939 27 10th Baluch Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
19 AHMAD YAR Sepoy 18162 03/09/1939 19 16th Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
20 AKALI Pioneer 255360 03/09/1939 30 Indian Pioneer Corps Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
21 AKBAR KHAN Sepoy SR/179248 03/09/1939 29 Royal Indian Army Service Corps Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
22 ALI MUHAMMAD Sepoy 9759 03/09/1939 Unknown 1st Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
23 ALI SHAN Naik 11937 03/09/1939 24 16th Punjab Regiment Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
24 AMAR NATH Nursing Sepoy 47966 03/09/1939 35 Indian Army Medical Corps Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
25 AMIR BAKHSH Sepoy 16344 03/09/1939 Unknown 11th Sikh Regiment Indian Column 225. SINGAPORE MEMORIAL
26 AMIR HUSAIN Trimmer 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
27 AYYA KANNAN Nursing Sepoy 32155 03/09/1939 29 Indian Army Medical Corps Indian DELHI / KARACHI 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
28 BABU SINGH Jemadar 13719/IO 03/09/1939 Unknown 19th Hyderabad Regiment Indian Column 303. SINGAPORE MEMORIAL
29 BADU MIAN Greaser 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Merchant Navy Indian BOMBAY / CHITTAGONG 1939-1945 WAR MEMORIALS
30 BALDEVA BHARTA Sweeper P/773 03/09/1939 Unknown Indian Army Postal Service Indian Column 360. SINGAPORE MEMORIAL

Kyt,
perhaps a telephone call to the enquiries section of C.W.G.C. would provide some form of answer. I have always found them to be very helpful in the past.
Between us we had almost 800 corrections made to the Registers in 1996.