Go Back   WW2 Forum > Around the world with WW2 > The war in the air
Portal Forums Watch Videos WW2 Radio Register Arcade Gallery FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

The war in the air Discuss the many aspects of the war from above.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17-11-2007, 10:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
The Aviator
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Perth Australia
Posts: 132
You're Top Poster: #19
The Aviator is on a distinguished road
Who shot up Erwin Rommel's staff car that day in 1944

Squadron Leader Le Roux of 602 Squadron was flying his Spitfire Mk 9 on a sweep through the French countryside that morning on the 17th July 1944.
Seeing a German staff car on a lonely road in Normandy he immediately attacked.
Later it was found to be Rommel's staff car and the attack and subsequent roll over left Rommel with multiple skull fractures.

Details:
Name LE ROUX, Jacobus Johannes 'Chris'
Number 42240
Nationality South African
Born South Africa, 1920
Arrived England 9 December 1940

Decorations DFC (1941), 1st Bar to DFC (1942), 2nd Bar to DFC (1943)
Notes KIA 29 August 1944, whilst CO of 602 Sqdn.; remembered on Panel 200 of the Runnymede Memorial

Chris le Roux took command of No.602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron in France in the summer of 1944, with Spitfire 9s, having received a second Bar to his DFC for his North African successes. He led this squadron through the fierce fighting of the invasion of Normandy, and moved it to French soil on 25th June. He shot down a FW 190 and a Me 109 on 15th July, 1944, and another FW 190 on 16th. On 17th he destroyed two Me 109s and damaged two more.

Chris Le Roux nearly succeeded in killing the German Commanding General, Erwin Rommel. Diving on his car, he caused it to overturn near the village of Sainte Foy de Montgomerie, and Rommel was flung into a ditch and sustained a fractured skull. He survived, only to kill himself on 14th October, rather than stand trial for complicity in the plot against Hitler of 20th July.
By 25th August, 1944, Paris had been liberated, and on 3rd September, five years after the outbreak of war, the Welsh Guards entered Brussels.

Chris le Roux did not live to enjoy the fruits of the victory. Like so many gallant and brilliant fighter pilots, he was killed, not by enemy gunfire, but by an aircraft accident, on 19th September, 1944.
Attached Thumbnails
Attached Images
File Type: jpg The great Mk 9.jpg (15.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg pilot.jpg (6.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Le Roux.jpg (38.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg ErwinRommel.jpg (16.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg staff car.jpg (10.6 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by The Aviator; 17-11-2007 at 10:40 PM..
The Aviator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2007, 10:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
morse1001
Super Moderator
 
morse1001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wishaw, Lanarkshire
Posts: 1,106
You're Top Poster: #5
morse1001 is on a distinguished road
I seem to remember that Raymond Baxter was part of the flight that attacked the rommel car.
__________________
WWW.Warfaretoday.com

HSL130 picking up the crew of a downed Halifax



Et tantis pretis constitutis plures Macropodidas in hae caupona minime videbis
morse1001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2007, 11:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
Kyt
Άρης
 
Kyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Terra something or other
Posts: 5,662
You're Top Poster: #1
Kyt is on a distinguished road
Awards Showcase
MiD One Year Service 5000 Posts 4000 posts 3000 posts 2000 posts 1500 Posts 1000 Posts 500 Posts 
Total Awards: 8
The issue of who actually shoy up Rommel took an interesting twist earlier year, and I decided to contact someone who could make an informed decision.

Back in 2004 an article appeared that disputed the the accepted claiment, and claimed that someone new had been found who really did the deed:

History News Network

Quote:
HEADLINE: The Canadian who ended Rommel's war: History changed on July 17, 1944 when the Nazis' greatest general, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, was wounded when his staff car was strafed by a Spitfire during the fighting in Normandy. Randy Boswell reports on new research showing it was a Canadian, Charley Fox, who knocked the Desert Fox out of the war.

SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen

BYLINE: Randy Boswell

BODY:
A Canadian pilot long recognized for his Second World War heroics -- including three sorties on D-Day alone -- is now being credited with knocking legendary German field marshal Erwin Rommel out of action in the crucial weeks following the invasion of Normandy.

The story of how Spitfire ace Charley Fox strafed Rommel's staff car as it sped through the French countryside July 17, 1944, is finally becoming clear after almost 60 years of uncertainty over who wounded the the "Desert Fox," the Nazis' greatest field commander.

A U.S. air crew initially claimed to have fired on Rommel's car. Many historical accounts say South African pilot J.J. Le Roux carried out the strike. Other possible attackers have been cited over the years.

But a Quebec historian researching the controversy at Library and Archives Canada says the official operational record book of Mr. Fox's unit, 412 Squadron, puts the Ontario-born pilot in the air at the right time and place to have taken out Rommel.

"Charley Fox is probably the guy that fired at Rommel's car," concludes Michel Lavigne, author of several books about the Second World War. "This is the official account from the time, usually filled out by a clerk with the squadron, recording when planes took off and came back. It's very precise, very exact."

Mr. Lavigne's findings confirm Mr. Fox's own log entry from that day and his recollections of swooping down on a German staff car and watching the bullet-riddled vehicle veer off the road.

"We took off late in the afternoon," recalls Mr. Fox, 84, who lives in London, Ont., and is to be installed as honorary colonel of his old wartime unit, 412 Squadron, at a ceremony this week in Ottawa.

"As soon as we got airborne at Bernieres-sur-mer, we started heading towards Caen and we split up into three sections of four, and we were to look for 'targets of opportunity' -- anything that was moving. It was the other side of Caen, and I saw this staff car coming along between a line of trees on a main road," says Mr. Fox. "I made no motion until it was just about 9 o'clock, and I did a diving, curving attack down and I probably started firing at about 300 yards. I saw hits on it and I saw it start to curve and go off the road -- and by then I'm on my way."

Mr. Fox says the incident remains "very clear in my mind." And the July 17 entry in his own wartime log book records

"1 staff car damaged" along with the destruction of a mechanical transport vehicle. At the end of the entry, Mr. Fox had written:

"? Rommel -- Yes."
This was followed in 2006 by:

Canada's Air Force, News Room, News Articles

Quote:
Air Force veteran to honour fallen friends

This Remembrance Day, while many Canadian veterans will be at home watching ceremonies on TV, or attending services in their own communities, 86-year-old Charley Fox will be driving down Highway 401 heading for Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto.

The Guelph, Ontario native, and Second World War Distinguished Flying Cross with bar recipient, is going to visit his old friend and fellow veteran, Steve Randall, who lives in the veterans’ wing at Sunnybrook Hospital.

His visit will be rather unusual, though. Instead of sitting and chatting with his friend, “Flight Lieutenant” Fox will be doing ground control, radio in hand, for a flypast over Sunnybrook by the Canadian Harvard Aircraft Association (CHAA). The association performs a flypast every year on Remembrance Day, usually over Toronto City Hall and then over Sunnybrook Hospital.

“I didn’t talk about my experiences in the war for over 40 years,” says F/L Fox, also the Honorary Colonel for 412 Transport Squadron in Ottawa, his old wartime squadron. “A lot of us felt so guilty when we came home from the war because we survived and so many of our friends didn’t. We didn’t want to talk about it. But then when I got involved doing ground control for these flypasts and doing colour commentaries at air shows across the country, I wanted to honour the “fellas” I flew with. I started to tell their stories.”

HCol Fox says he flew with half of the 42 412 Sqn pilots who were killed during the Second World War and it’s their sacrifices and heroism he is determined to share every chance he gets, whether it’s on Remembrance Day or throughout the year.

“I have a passion for passing on the story of what our men and womendid overseas and the sacrifices they made, particularly to our young people,” says HCol Fox. “I want them to hear and to study and to learn about our great, strong military history and about Canada standing up to be counted. My father served in the Boer war, my wife’s father died from First World War injuries three weeks after my wife was born, I served in the Second World War and a lot of Canadians just don’t know about our military history.”

Aside from travelling the country, speaking to schools, helping with air shows and Remembrance Day, HCol Fox is also working on a more lasting tribute to his wartime friends and their service to Canada. He has teamed up with CBC broadcaster and author Ted Barris to write a book called, “Why not me?”

The book is based on HCol Fox’s wartime logbook, diary and interviews he did with Mr. Barris this past fall. The name of the book was inspired by an incident in December 1945 after HCol Fox returned home to Canada. While working in a store in Guelph, HCol Fox had a woman approach him grab his shoulders crying while she shook him. She knew he had served in the war with her late son, Andy Howden, she continued crying and pounding on his chest, saying “Why my Andy and not you? Why myAndy and not you?”

The guilt he felt was tremendous and served to push his memories even further down, where they stayed for more than 40 years. He began to talk about the war about 20 years ago when he became involved with the CHAA and hasn’t stopped since.

“Why not me?” is still in production and there is no word yet as to when it will be published or distributed.

HCol Fox is perhaps best known for strafing Field Marshal Erwin Rommel’s staff car from his Spitfire at 300 feet, fatally wounding the driver and severely injuring Rommel who was in charge of all German forces in Normandy. Although Rommel recovered, the injuries he sustained affected his ability to operate effectively and he did not return to active duty.

HCol Fox has been the Honorary Colonel of 412 Squadron since May of 2004.
The issue with both articles is that the claim has still, to date, not been backed up by hard evidence made available to the public. The proposed book is still not available as far as I can see.
__________________

click me
Kyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2007, 11:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
Kyt
Άρης
 
Kyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Terra something or other
Posts: 5,662
You're Top Poster: #1
Kyt is on a distinguished road
Awards Showcase
MiD One Year Service 5000 Posts 4000 posts 3000 posts 2000 posts 1500 Posts 1000 Posts 500 Posts 
Total Awards: 8
I decided to write to the 602 Squadron Museum Association, and Roddy Macgregor, the Hon Sec, kindly wrote back with:

Quote:
The Canadians and I believe the Yanks have all "claimed" Rommell at some time or another since the end of the war.

Chris Le Roux, a South African, of 602 (City of Glasgow) Sqn Aux A F has been credited too and we think that is the most valid as the "legend" of the Rommell attack being credited to 602 Sqn has been circulating since the end od WW2.

However, since then several others have come forward but with little substance.
Pierre Clostermann, the Free French pilot who flew with 602 in the latter years of the war, before and after the invasion of France, in the reissued copy of his book, "The Big Show", in 2004, included a chapter on this subject using material that was still "Classified" when he wrote the original version published in 1951..

Pierre is very explicit saying that 6 Spitfires took off on July 17th !944 at 15:40 hrs led by Le Roux. In the course of their sortie they spotted Me 109s and Le Roux, Manson and Jonssen attacked them but at the same moment Jacques Remlinger, another Free French 602 member of 602 spotted a large staff car with motor cycle escort and with New Zealander Bruce Oliver turned 180 degrees and came down on it. Both fired on it and its escort. The car left the road and turned over. It was Rommel's car. Pierre goes into a lot more detail in the chapter of his book. It all sounds very authentic. However..........

By strange coincidence I was reading the new version of the book last year not long after Clostermann's death when I got an E.mail from a lady in New Zealand saying she was the daughter of a ex 602 pilot, Bruce Oliver, and was searching for history of her father during his time with the Squadron, he sadly being killed in a flying accident in 1959. He was flying a crop duster that had hit overhead power lines and had crashed fatally.

Through this contact I later obtained a copy of Bruce's log book but oddly for the 17th of July 1944, whilst recording that he flew a sortie that day, he does not mention attacking a staff car, although, on the 19th of July he does record such an attack. Did he get the dates mixed up? Who knows.

They have all gone now and the enigma remains!

I recomend the book to you if you would like to read the complete story as Pierre relates it. It's a great read of his time with the RAF.

Details are The Big Show ,The greatest Pilots Story of World War ll, Published by Cassell in paper back IBSN-13 978-0-3043-6624-8, IBSN-10 0-3043-6624-2 Price £7.99
Until hard evidence is produced to the public I'll stick to believing that it was indeed Le Roux
__________________

click me
Kyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2007, 12:44 AM   #5 (permalink)
The Aviator
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Perth Australia
Posts: 132
You're Top Poster: #19
The Aviator is on a distinguished road
Starting to sound like who got Richthofen. I think that bigger guns than the humble Australian Lewis gunner wanted to be credited. Nationality comes into these things. So does rank. "How dare a mere army private or corporal make such a claim. And an uncouth Australian at that!"

Now we have a South African, a Brit, a Frenchman, a Canadian and a New Zealander all saying they got Rommel. Fantastic isn't it?

Well I put the post up from information on the net available. All any of us can do.
Thanks for going to all that trouble to try and get varification Kyt.
The Aviator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2008, 12:43 AM   #6 (permalink)
Kyt
Άρης
 
Kyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Terra something or other
Posts: 5,662
You're Top Poster: #1
Kyt is on a distinguished road
Awards Showcase
MiD One Year Service 5000 Posts 4000 posts 3000 posts 2000 posts 1500 Posts 1000 Posts 500 Posts 
Total Awards: 8
Just posted on rafcommands. So not as clear cut as Lavigne claims:

Aerial Visuals - Locator Search Page
__________________

click me
Kyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2008, 12:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
Antipodean Andy
Senior Member
 
Antipodean Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Outer reaches, Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 4,062
You're Top Poster: #2
Antipodean Andy is on a distinguished road
Awards Showcase
4000 posts MiD One Year Service 3000 posts 2000 posts 1500 Posts 1000 Posts 500 Posts 
Total Awards: 7
I wonder if anyone has bothered to hunt down the German side of things? Is there any record/memories of where the car was found if it could not be moved?
__________________
http://www.454-459squadrons.org.au/.
http://www.awm.gov.au/index.asp


Aircraft from No. 60 Squadron levelling out for the "run in" to make a mast-head attack on a Japanese coaster off Akyab. Courtesy AWM.
Antipodean Andy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2008, 01:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
Kyt
Άρης
 
Kyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Terra something or other
Posts: 5,662
You're Top Poster: #1
Kyt is on a distinguished road
Awards Showcase
MiD One Year Service 5000 Posts 4000 posts 3000 posts 2000 posts 1500 Posts 1000 Posts 500 Posts 
Total Awards: 8
There are some commentaries from the German side but I can't find the references at the moment. But they don't answer the question of who the attackers were.
__________________

click me
Kyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2008, 01:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
Antipodean Andy
Senior Member
 
Antipodean Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Outer reaches, Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 4,062
You're Top Poster: #2
Antipodean Andy is on a distinguished road
Awards Showcase
4000 posts MiD One Year Service 3000 posts 2000 posts 1500 Posts 1000 Posts 500 Posts 
Total Awards: 7
I was thinking they might have details as to what road they were on etc but, thinking about it further, there would be nothing to correlate with as the Spits wouldn't have been stopping to pinpoint exactly where they were! Ah well.
__________________
http://www.454-459squadrons.org.au/.
http://www.awm.gov.au/index.asp


Aircraft from No. 60 Squadron levelling out for the "run in" to make a mast-head attack on a Japanese coaster off Akyab. Courtesy AWM.
Antipodean Andy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2008, 05:39 AM   #10 (permalink)
John
Senior Member
 
John's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 262
You're Top Poster: #15
John is on a distinguished road
It all sounds like ' Who shot down the Red Baron ' in WW1. Just about every man and his dog tried to claim that one

John
John is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0