Should the Atomic Bomb have been dropped on Japan?

[spidge]

We will never know if in fact they would have surrendered, or if they were beaten. The bombs ended the war and hostilities ceased.

Some of those above would have preferred to use conventional means like troops and the creation of fire storms to bring them to the peace table.

All of the above would have had no choice but to sanction an invasion of Japan and therefore had the decision taken out of their hands.

[Kitty]

With hindsight I do believe that the Emporer was searching for a way for peace. But it would have taken time. It was a very tricky situation.

[Blackwatch]

"With hindsight I do believe that the Emperor was searching for a way for peace. But it would have taken time. It was a very tricky situation." ~ Kitty

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree...The sons and daughters of Nippon were actively working to literally take over the world, along with the Axis Powers under a unified formal alliance developed way before the start of of ANY hostilies...The Japanese saw themselves as a 'pure' culture and openly despised the descendent's of mass migrations from Europe (from France, Britain, Spain...etc...) as mongrels, both unworthy and unfit to simply live, except in servitude the living God, the Emperor of Japan...

With the oil sanctions emplaced from the U.S. because of the US Gunboat Panay sinking and the invasion of Manchuria for it's resources, TOTAL war was inevitable...a total war to the knife and MASS killings started on a scale BY Japan, Germany and Italy NEVER before seen, way outdoing the First World War...The Formal Axis Alliance was for Germany to push through Europe to India and for Japan to push through China and Burma to link up in India...thus cutting off ALL Allied military missions and lines of communication and resources, to conquer and hold the ENTIRE world....and they damn near did it too...

The utter contempt the Japanese held for those military and civilian directly lead to the Rape of Nanking, the LARGEST mass surrender of troops by both the British and American Armies EVER, along with the relish with total barbarism and glee the Japanese slaughtered MILLIONS before they were pushed back on the defensive is now in the History Books...Thank God...fact is the fire bombings of Japan killed WAY more the Atomic Bomb ever did...and there is evidence that Japan was well on it's way the Atomic Bomb, along with Germany (Germany was just SIX months away from having this when it surrendered)...and there is a documented account of Japan sending a "I"-class sub with a plane carrying a radiological bomb to be dropped on California...

The huge increase of casualties that the Allies incurred caused the dread and open fear of the planned invasion of Japan...I don't think you realize just how close we all came to LOSSING the war IN IT"S FINAL STAGES...

The summary conclusions of the 1945 Intelligence Report on the proposed invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall) was as follows:

1. Japan would not surrender unconditionally without a demonstration of total destruction.

2. In an invasion of the Japanese home islands, the people would fight to the death to protect their nation.

3. An invasion of the Japanese home islands would cost approximately 1 million American casualties and perhaps 10 million Japanese. (many historians and Intel Analysts think and suggest THE ENTIRE Japanese culture would die because Hirohito at first would NEVER surrender and the invasions would still be necessary despite the 2 Atomic detonations!!!)

Yes...it was necessary and needed....

[Kyt]

Originally Posted by Blackwatch

The summary conclusions of the 1945 Intelligence Report on the proposed invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall) was as follows:

1. Japan would not surrender unconditionally without a demonstration of total destruction.

2. In an invasion of the Japanese home islands, the people would fight to the death to protect their nation.

3. An invasion of the Japanese home islands would cost approximately 1 million American casualties and perhaps 10 million Japanese. (many historians and Intel Analysts think and suggest THE ENTIRE Japanese culture would die because Hirohito at first would NEVER surrender and the invasions would still be necessary despite the 2 Atomic detonations!!!)

Actually that was just one of the alternatives considered. There were numerous options for the final defeat of Japan, with the various theatre and branch commanders each pushing for their own preferred method.

Initially, three options that were considered:

1. The encirclement of the Japanese Home Islands (including lodgements on the Asian mainland), which would be followed by an invasion, as suggested by the Navy.
2. The encirclement of the Japanese Home Islands (including lodgements on the Asian mainland), followed by bombardment and blockade without an invasion.
3. A direct assault on Kyushu that would provide additional air and naval bases for the strike on Honshu

MacArthur was all for the final option.

Apart from the attempts of some parties within the Japanese government to seek surrender terms, which are well documented, the very issue of possible US casualties, and how they effected the final decision to drop the bombs, is still being debated:

http://home.kc.rr.com/casualties/
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...downfall3.html

http://www.milnet.com/cia/japan-end/csi9810001.html

The original documents under debate:
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...sion/final.pdf

The stated 1 million casualties was accepted, even back then, as way over-estimated figure, and the likeliest highest figure was a possible 250, 000 killed and injured US personnel.

However, the biggest concerns for Trumen were not the casualties but (a) the length of the campaign, (b) the political effect of attempting any possible negotiated peace with Japan, in the eyes of the US public, especially as this had not been allowed to happen for germany and for the US public the Japanese had always been the greater enemy, and (c) the effect of the Soviet entry into the war and how much territory they will have occupied during the period of the mainland campaign.

Considering the effects of the firebombings of the Japanese cities before the A-bombs, there was never any ethical concerns about the mass deaths of the Japanese people or considerations of the destruction of the Japanese culture.

As the post-war Occupation shows, the considerations about the Japanese culture wasn't a high priority anyway. The political and social restructuring that occurred during that post-war period was sociologically huge anyway.

[Kyt]

IV. The Japanese Search for Soviet Mediation

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/29.pdf

This summary includes a report on a cable from Japanese Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo to Ambassador Naotake Sato in Moscow concerning the emperor's decision to seek Soviet help in ending the war. Not knowing that the Soviets had already made a commitment to its Allies to declare war on Japan, Tokyo fruitlessly pursued this option for several weeks. The "Magic" intercepts from mid-July have figured in Gar Alperovitz's argument that Truman and his advisers recognized that the emperor was ready to capitulate if the Allies showed more flexibility on the demand for unconditional surrender. This point is central to Alperovitz's thesis that top U.S. officials recognized a "two-step logic" that moderating unconditional surrender and a Soviet declaration of war would have been enough to induce Japan's surrender without the use of the bomb

.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/30.pdf

The day after the Togo message was reported, Army intelligence chief Weckerling (Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2) proposed several possible explanations of the Japanese diplomatic initiative

And there are other documents with commentaries on the aforementioned site.

[spidge]

A good summation Kyt which shows the conundrum which a new president found himself.

The Japanese had to pay the price for all of these unknown statistics not the allies. Russia would definitely have attempted another land grab as a reward for their part in the Japanese capitulation, which after their two faced approach in the Molotov pact, could not be condoned.

From figures that I have seen previously, the Japanese still had 5,000-12,000 aircraft available for fighter and Kamakazi attacks, 2.5 million troops and over 28,000,000 Japanese who had become a part of the National Volunteer Combat Force, civilians who were ready to die for the Emperor. They had also crafted knives for the civilians out of ceramic due to the shortage of steel.

I found the link which explains quite a lot about the proposed invasion. It is quite in depth but very eye opening.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro.../downfall.html

[Kyt]

Good site Spidge. Just had a quick look at the bibliography and I too would recommend two of the books mentioned:

Codename Downfall: The Secret Plan to Invade Japan and Why Truman Dropped the Bomb - Thomas B. Allen, Simon & Schuster 1995
The plans for the invasion of 'Orange', the US codename for Japan. This book traces the history of US planning from the early part of the century up to the end of WW2. Good maps, charts, drawings.

Death Is Lighter Than A Feather - David Westheimer, University of N. Texas Press 1994
A novel based on Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan. Excellent prologue, followed by a host of characters who are wrapped around a technical readout of how this battle would have been fought. Highly recommended for Downfall readers.

Feather is a great read - each chapter involves a completely new character, who appears and disappears as the invasion and campaign rolls over them.

[Blackwatch]

You all realize the US Army in Europe, when notified of redeployement to the Pacific, came VERY, VERY close to open mutiny, right? That was another reason for the Bomb to be dropped....

[Kyt]

What hasn't been mentioned is the direct affect on the British & Commonwealth forces in SEAC. For the US, Olympic was still being planned, and the month or so before the surrender was a period of realitive respite after Okinawa.

However, what the dropping of the Bombs did was stop one invasion that about to start on the 1st September. The preparations of this were nearly complete and the shedule had been set.

Operation Zipper - the Invasion of Malaya

Operation Zipper was the plan for the capture of Port Swettenham on the north-west coast of Malaya leading to a southward advance on Singapore. The plan was devised by Admiral Lord Mountbatten’s South-East Asia Command after receiving instructions on 3 February 1945 to complete the liberation of Burma as rapidly as possible and then liberating Malaya.

In this sweep “Zipper” concentrated on capturing a beachhead in the Port Swettenham/Port Dickson area of south-west Malaya. The opposition was found by Field marshal Count Hisaichi Terauchi’s Southern region command, i.e. the 29th Japanese Army in Malaya under the command of General K. Doihara’s 7th Area Army. “Zipper” faced two Japanese divisions and an Independent Mixed Brigade, supported by a tank battalion, in the Kra isthmus region.

The Allied Landing Force for “Zipper” was Lt.General O.L.Robert’s XXXIV Indian Corps (5th, 23rd, 25th and 26th Indian Divisions, 3rd Commando Brigade and one Parachute Brigade of the British 6th Airborne Div.), and though “Zipper” itself was to use just two divisions and one brigade, the corps’ additional forces were to be landed as soon as possible for the advance south towards Singapore.

D-day for Zipper was pushed to 9 September and would have landings near Morib with the 25th Indian Division and the 37th bde of the 23rd Indian Division. By D+6 they expected to have airfields near Port Swettenham and Port Dickson.

By D+8, 3 divisions (23rd, 25th, and the 5th) as well as 2 infantry brigades and the 50th Indian Tank Brigade were to be there with the XXXIV Corps HQ.

By D+53 the advance to Singapore was to be well underway.

To support the landings more than 500 aircraft of strategic, tactical and general reconnaissance units of the RAF were assembled at airfields in Burma, Ceylon and the Cocos Islands. At the same time the supply of arms and equipment to the underground organisation in Malaya was intensified and photographic aircraft worked hard to provide advanced information for all three services. One of their tasks was to secure detailed pictures of the proposed landing areas, and most of this was done by a detachment of four Mosquitos from the Cocos Islands under the control of Wing Commander Newman of No. 684 Squadron.

Instead, with the surrender Zipper became the occupation-force for Operation Tiderace - the liberation of the region from the surrendered Japanese.

[Kyt]

There's about 20-25 essays and articles on this link. All discussing whether the bomb should have been dropped. And it covers both those who are pro and con. Some excellent arguements, and well looking through:

http://hnn.us/articles/10168.html