What do you know about AS?

[Wise1]

Anti semitism was not new to the world as a result of Hitler, the Jews were hated and criticised throughout the ages, what they have suffered at the hands of others they did not deserve, although not completely blameless given some of their actions, but thats the same as all other races, nobody has been perfect, but few have suffered in the same way.

Anyway, my question is what do you know about anti semitism pre Hitler?

lets build up a bit of a history of it past.

[Kyt]

I have to admit that I don't know a lot about anti-semitism before the C20th. This is partly due to the fact that I don't understand it, either at the emotional or theoretical level. Being of Indian Sikh stock, the "history" has not been passed down to me, and the Christian/Judaic antipathy is not my "genes".

However, discrimination is something that I understand, and thus the Jews are, to me, one of many groups who have suffered at the hands of another group. That isn't to say that I don't recognise the enormity of the crimes committed against them but I simpy have difficulty differentiating it from the crimes of slavery, imperialism, the treatment of the poor in industrial societies etc.

NOTE: I am talking about the pre-C20th, and NOT including the Holocaust which was, obviously, one the greatest crimes against humanity.

[Kyt]

What has interested me is the way that anti-semitism has played a part in the lives of prominent individuals. Two examples that have read a fair bit about are the Dreyfuss Affair, and the attacks on Karl Marx for being Jewish (the tactics used by right-wing anti-communists).

The way that the Dreyfus Affair unfolded split French society at a time when it was supposedly a secular modern state. What should have been a straight forward spy story became the focal point of the very corruption and prejudices of those in power. It also highlighted the power of the political right-wing that had grown over the 100 years since the revolution.

And amazingly, it still splits France today, though all the evidence shows that Dreyfuss was not only innocenmt, but the case would never have blown up the way it did if he hadn't been Jewish (even the fact that he was an Alsatian was not deemed as "dangerous"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Dreyfus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair

[spidge]

This is a good place to start with a plain English explanation which elaborates to incidents through history.

http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/asemit.htm

[spidge]

A brief history of Antisemetism!

http://www.humanitas-international.o...st/antisem.htm

[writersthought]

Well, I know it was very present in Europe centuries before WW2. It really isn't clear as to where or who started it. Some would say Rome with Nero, others say Eygpt, before they had a county. They have had probably the most enemies I have ever seen just from one country over the ages. Hostility really started when they conquered Palestine and became the dominate people, but they never really got their lands under control. their enemies were beaten, but not gone. For centuries they have been hated as a people, but not on the likes of Hitler's doing though. Hard to find a solid starting point on this issue.

[Blackwatch]

some idiot has ALWAYS thought they were better than someone else...I suppose from the time the first caveman bashed another one with a rock it started....problem is some people really are smarter, or faster, or more adept than others, drastically so in many cases....and there are Jewish bigots too....

[nzvicki]

Some AS influences?

Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" (written circa 1597) portrays the Jewish moneylender, Shylock, as greedy, out for his pound of flesh, but does show his human side too when he says: "If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? ..."

I've read that they were not allowed to own land in the middle ages in England (probably elsewhere too). As did other minorities everywhere, they went into "despised" occupations which were much needed but didn't compete with, or threaten their mainstream hosts, e.g. usury: in The Bible Jesus showed his outrage at moneylenders outside the temple - interesting to me is the imagery of the sacred and the profane.

Controversy of world conquest through world Jewish government set out in The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion which my uni Jewish lecturer believed to be a set-up, but I have not looked into this.

The Jewish holocaust was a rare example of white racism for genocide previously had involved people of colour.

Anti-semitism as a concept was brought home to me when a person I liked and admired for her tolerance/abilities/generosity/pursuit of understanding across borders etc, spoke of the them with contempt asking: "what have they ever contributed?! I'd observed they'd contributed way beyond their number when compared with other ethnic/religious group in most fields like music, science, arts, philanthropy, maths, comedy, filmaking etc and couldn't figure why she would say that. It hit me that maybe she, having studied French/German/English language and literature to high levels, might have absorbed that continuing European thread of AS for in Germany it was said "the Jews are our misfortune" and it was those attitudes which enabled enactment of laws legitimating Nazi actions.

Hope don't come across as holier-than-thou, as there are some witty/clever jokes using each of our group characteristics as key components, but racial humour can be gratuitous, not at all funny, but serves purposes like affirming the tribe by reinforcing negative stereotypes which exclude the different, so I try not to collude by perpetuating them. I told my husband to tell his well-educated brother with Jewish friends, never to make Maori/Jewish jokes in our home as I like to treat others as I wish to be treated. I believe it pointless to talk about peace, leaving it to others, without changing ourselves first - most of us hold prejudices and can be unthinkingly exclusive of others. When we know better, hopefully we can do better.

[gumalangi]

I watched the movie "merchant from venice" al pacino,.

[Interrogator#6]

May I take a moment to address the issue for some alternative perspectives?

Why discuss it here in a Forum which is supposed to be regarding in particular one aspect of Military History?

Why use the term anti-sematism? That issue is not about all semitic peoples but about only one of the semitic ethinic group. Semetic refers to a group of languages: Arabic, Armenian, and Hebrew being the primary members of this language branch. The term derives from a time when Europeans only encountered one of this groups, but today with global travel and communications this crass bigotry seems dated.

If you wish to talk historic roots, lets talk history. This bias stems from a time when the Latin Church had temporal in Italy, when the Pope et al had made pronouncements so as to gain even more temporal power.

We can talk about the reasons for the First Crusade, and subsequent crusades. Wecan talk of trade issues, then the Papacy was in direct competition with Arabian merchants for the Alum trade. Or we can talk about the traffic controlled by the Byzantium traders, or her daughter Venice.

Then there is the issue of the Inquistion. That was the result of not only displacing the Moors from Andalusia, but also the Jews.

Remember, there is not one cause but many, and some are self-reinforcing influences.

It is a old and wide topic which deserves a spotlight, but is this the correct venue for such an examination?