Westland Lysander

[Kyt]

Adrian

Re #5 the only "decent" picture I could find was in Clarke's "British Aircraft Armament: Vol 2". Though actually about the gun sight it does show the limited space available

Re: # 9, I couldn't say for North Africa (not too hot on this theatre) but in Burma, artillery and recon was carried out by a mixture of aircraft. One dedicated squadron was 656 Squadron Association (make sure you have the speakers off because the music is very annoying and I can't find the off button). In addition, a number of the RIAF squadrons, using Lysanders, and then Hurricanes, were used for artillery observations.

On the western front, a number of Spitfire/Mustang/Typhoon squadrons were assigned artillery observation duties, especially during the DDay/Normandy period

[mfg495]

The Lysanders were used by the RAF for flying tactical reconnaissance missions for the Army at the start of WW2 in France.
The Free French had two squadrons of Lysanders carrying out reconnaissance in Equatorial Africa in 1942 and the RAF had No.2 PRU in the Middle East under taking the task.

[Adrian Roberts]

Kyt
Thanks for the photo of the gunner. He certainly didn't have a lot of room - looks as though the gun mounting might have had to be pulled forward from a recess behind the rear cockpit to be used. Clearly he could only fire directly rearward if it was possible to pivot the mounting upward.

Probably it was always assumed that the Lysander's protection would be from fighter units flying top cover, rather than having to protect itself. This was the situation in WW1 I assume they would have followed that practice. But in the chaos of the May 1940 retreat, it can be imagined that all too often fighter escort just didn't happen.

[spidge]

Renewing...................

[Kyt]

Originally Posted by Adrian Roberts

Clearly he could only fire directly rearward if it was possible to pivot the mounting upward.

Though these pictures aren't the clearest (I'm hoping to get some better ones in the next few days) it does show that the gun seem more aimed at sideways, downward or directly upwards firing. The one direction it would problems firing is rearward as the canopy and the tail would get in the way.

[Adrian Roberts]

Kyt
Thanks for finding these. Looks like Westland had abandoned all pretence of having a gunner blasting away at all directions at oncoming fighters, and provided a system purely for ground support. Which would have been fine with a decent fighter escort arrangement.
But I believe a Lysander managed to shoot down a He 111 over France during the phoney war, and since I don't think the Mk IIIA with the guns in the wheel spats was in service yet, it must have used the Observer's gun.

Adrian

[Kyt]

I've heard of a claim by 4 Squadron for a He111, as you say Adrian, but I haven't confirmed it and Shore's Fledgling Eagles makes no mention of such a claim.

However, this sounds like an excellent example of the use of the gun:

during the morning of 2 February 1941 a Lysander of 237 Squadron, N1206 flown by Flying Officer M. A. Johnson, was on tactical reconnaissance over the Scipitole-Tole road when it encountered three Ca.133s dropping supplies to troops at the front. Johnson at once attacked one of the bombers, forcing it to land and crash. Unknown to him however, the Capronis were escorted by three 412a Squadriglia CR.42s, and these now attacked the Lysander. Sergeant J.G.P. Burl fired three pans of ammunition at them with the rear gun, seeing smoke from the engine of one fighter, but he was wounded in the wrist. The Lysanders controls were shot through and it crash-landed violently to the east of Tole, the pilot being rendered unconscious. The aircraft was claimed shot down by Soffritti. Under the fire from the fighters, which were strafing the wreckage, Burl managed to pull Johnson clear, both members of the crew subsequently being decorated*

Italian biplane fighter aces - Aroldo Soffritti

* Gazette Issue 35124 published on the 1 April 1941 (they've got Burl as Gurl)

Distinguished Flying Cross.
Flying Officer Miles Andrews JOHNSON (80044), Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, No. 237 (Rhodesia) Squadron.

Distinguished Flying Medal.
776358 Sergeant John Graham Ponsonby GURL, No. 237 (Rhodesia) Squadron.

Flying Officer Johnson and Sergeant Gurl were pilot and air gunner respectively in an aircraft which, during a reconnaissance patrol one day in February, 1941, attacked three C.A.1335-. As a result, one of these aircraft was forced down and crashed on landing. Flying Officer Johnson's aircraft was then attacked by three Italian fighters and, in the first attack, Sergeant Gurl was wounded in the hand. Despite this, he returned fire causing one of the attackers to break away. Flying Officer Johnson's aircraft was so severely damaged that, in attempting to land, his aircraft crashed and he was rendered unconscious. He was extricated from the wreckage by Sergeant Gurl and, when he had recovered, both set off on foot to avoid possible capture. After travelling a few miles over difficult country they were met by some natives who assisted them to a friendly camp

[Kyt]

Ha, finally found something that shows the gunner. Sorry about the quality but the orginal Flight magazine (1938) scan wasn't brilliant.

And it makes for an interesting comparison with the Battle:

Fairey-Battle

[Adrian Roberts]

Thanks, this makes it even clearer. Looks like the observer's seat was further forward than I always imagined, under the fixed part of the canopy, with the gun itself under the sliding hood.

I'm not sure what he was supposed to do with his legs when in the prone position though...

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Kyt

One of those aircrafts that deserves far more recognition than it gets:

Westland Lysander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Westland Lysander aircraft profile. Aircraft Database of the Fleet Air Arm Archive 1939-1945
Westland Lysander in detail

Some lovely structural close ups:
Image Bank

And as usual youtube comes up trumps with a clipped narration:
YouTube - Westland Lysander in Action

Hi Kyt,
Try punching " Weird Aircraft " into the computer, the sites will keep you busy for hours.
Did you get the Lysander pics I posted to W22 home site ?
Cheers
Keith